People of Northwest Arkansas

Navigating Creativity and Parenthood: Matthew Moore’s Journey from Music to Podcasting

Danielle Schaum and Danielle Keller Season 2 Episode 8

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Matthew Moore shares his journey from rural Illinois to becoming a podcaster and Senior Producer at KUAF while navigating the challenges of parenting and sleep deprivation. The episode showcases the importance of support systems and the value of storytelling in understanding our world.

Matthew discusses his transition from live music production to podcasting, the importance of education and pursuing passions, insights on challenges in media and journalism and emphasis on the value of authentic and relatable storytelling.

Thank you for tuning in! You can find Matthew on Instagram at @matthewrmoore and follow his work at Ozarks at Large.

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Speaker 1:

All right, we're in a different studio today. Yes, we are. This is actually our first interview outside of Brock's studio.

Speaker 2:

It's not, but I will go with it. It's not, no, we recorded at Go Rogue's studio.

Speaker 1:

That's right, okay that was a video. That was not. No, we recorded at Go Rogue Studio, that's right. Okay, that was a video. That was a video, but we still recorded an episode there.

Speaker 2:

That's true, but this is like a true podcast studio.

Speaker 1:

Well, I guess Go Rogue was a true podcast studio, but this is special because we're actually at KUAF today In Fayetteville, yes, and we're going to be interviewing Matthew Moore. Yes, we are, yes, so Matthew welcome.

Speaker 4:

Hi, thanks for having me.

Speaker 1:

I say welcome and we're in your office.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to your office, matthew. Yeah, welcome to your office.

Speaker 4:

It's nice to be welcomed here.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for allowing us to interview you on our podcast in your office.

Speaker 4:

Absolutely. I'm happy to accommodate you all, I'm so happy.

Speaker 1:

I was just saying that he barely got enough sleep last night. I think a lot of our listeners will appreciate this, because we have a lot of families that listen to this podcast. He is an 18 month old.

Speaker 4:

I do.

Speaker 1:

And he's had a little sleep regression.

Speaker 4:

Probably.

Speaker 2:

He's rebelling against sleep.

Speaker 4:

It's hard to know if it's a regression, if it's just like a perpetual thing. Yeah, no, he's the best. He's the best kiddo in the world, and I'm extremely biased in saying that.

Speaker 1:

No, I bet he is, though he is pretty great.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, and the last couple of nights he has decided that he needs to get up three or four times in the middle of the night and it's not out of like sickness. It's not because he's got an ear infection or anything. He just like wakes up and you go in there and he's just like okay, cool, I'm ready to go back to sleep now.

Speaker 2:

And he falls back asleep on you. He just wants to make sure you're there.

Speaker 1:

This could be a whole other podcast, but I've extensively studied the history of sleep and people did not used to sleep. That's why there's midnight. People used to wake up in the middle of the night and do things like cook, pray, hunt, all kinds of things like so.

Speaker 4:

Eight hours sleep is an extremely new idea.

Speaker 1:

Yes, so I think we have to train the babies to sleep, because we're wired to just get up.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

So, anyway, he's just doing what he's born to do, Right.

Speaker 4:

Yes, yes, and apparently I'm also born to do that Same.

Speaker 1:

Ok, so we'll get back on track.

Speaker 2:

That was a great segue into this conversation.

Speaker 1:

Parenting is not for the faint of heart, no. And if they told us what we're going to have to do, I?

Speaker 2:

have to always resist the urge to say people shouldn't just wait. Because I remember being a new mom or even when I was pregnant and people would be like, oh, just wait, I don't like just wait, because I remember being a new mom, or even when I was pregnant and people would be like, oh, just wait, and you're like I don't like just wait thanks for that encouragement or enjoy it while you can.

Speaker 1:

You're like, how do I enjoy it more than I'm?

Speaker 2:

enjoying it. You don't. You do not have to enjoy the bad stuff. That is a lie. Do not listen, do not believe it. It is a whole lot of bs like you do not have to enjoy the crappy parts of parenting.

Speaker 1:

But do you ever sit there in those great moments and you're like, how do I savor this any more than I'm savoring it?

Speaker 4:

And I'll be honest with you, Like I don't enjoy getting up for the fourth time at 3 am. But I will say that there are moments when he is just snuggling me so good, I was just like you know what. This could be a lot worse.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 4:

And I really like, I really cherish that I will wake up and I will, like, stomp my way up to his bedroom and just be like you have to sleep, and then I get up there and he's snuggling me and I'm just like this could be worse.

Speaker 1:

It could be worse. It could be worse. Those are sweet little moments that you have that memory bias.

Speaker 2:

when you're past that, and you're like oh, but we should have another, because that was so cute. And then you're stomping up again to the second kid, and then they get older, and then you're like stop touching me. All right, so let's intro our guest today. So, matthew Moore, you are, or is it? Matt? I'm. Matthew, matthew, I'm a Matthew. All right, so tell us a little bit about who you are, what you're, what do and how you ended up in Northwest Arkansas, since that's the first question that we like to ask our guests.

Speaker 4:

Absolutely so. I grew up in southeastern Illinois, so if you're familiar with Chicago, I'm on the complete opposite end of that state.

Speaker 4:

Grew up there in a town of like 300 people, a consolidated public county school, like, if you're thinking rural, rural, you're not thinking small enough, like I grew up in the middle of nowhere wow and and I was a pretty creative kid I loved music, I loved watching movies, I loved making stuff, and it was really strange to grow up in that kind of environment, because I was surrounded by people who, like, were either farmers or they were school teachers which are very creative, but, like I had a very small group of people who I could like see myself being, and I didn't see myself as any of those people.

Speaker 4:

My mom was a nurse, my dad was a social worker, and I did not want to do either of those things, and so I really didn't know what I wanted to do. But I loved being creative and I loved doing things with, like, a creative mind, and so I went away to college near St Louis, missouri, and studied music for a semester, and the second day I was in over my head and I was just like this is not going to go well.

Speaker 4:

So I changed to a music business major in college where I was still got to be part of the creative world but was more behind the scenes, did a lot of like production kind of stuff. And so after college, moved to St Louis and worked doing like live music production. For quite some time I would work at like county fairs, music festivals, doing that sort of stuff.

Speaker 1:

That sounds really fun.

Speaker 4:

It does sound really fun until you do it for like 45 weekends in a row and you're traveling by yourself and you're driving eight hours one way A little less fun in those moments and that's a bit like the. It goes back to our earlier of just like, just wait, when you would tell people like, oh my gosh, I can't wait to get out into live music and just hear bands. It sounds glamorous.

Speaker 4:

It sounds glamorous, it sounds great and I still have friends who are doing that stuff and they are killing it and they are great, but I just couldn't do it, so you're used to no sleep In a sense.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's why he wakes up in the middle of the night. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4:

I actually wake up sometimes and just like why aren't you awake? Go and poke them. So I did that, for I did that for quite some time and it just got really burnout on it. I missed interacting with people like regularly interacting with the same people, but during this time when I'm driving eight hours one way by myself. This was like 2015, when Serial like the first season of Serial came out.

Speaker 4:

Oh, yeah, and I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. I love this. And because I had experience with, like the production side of it, I was just like I could do this, like very like naively thinking I could do this because I knew how to like put the things together. So I got really excited about podcasts and it was really for the first time that I like dove into a kind of like journalistic media that I was like I could do this and I love this and I can like really see how this is like making my brain excited and I can understand why it makes other people's brains excited too and like helps them to like understand the news and to understand culture in ways that like maybe written or video doesn't quite do it for them. It was really during that time where the the seed got planted of like I could do this, and so I stopped going out on the road, ended up working like coffee shop jobs for a while, just trying to get back into society.

Speaker 4:

I met my wife. She had moved from Maumelle, arkansas, which is near Little Rock, moved to St Louis for a job. We met in 2016 and got married in 2018. And we were both in a place where we're like we love each other but we don't really love what we do. And there's nothing like tying us to St Louis. Like we like being in St Louis.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 4:

But like, what's keeping us here if it's not jobs? And so we said to ourselves like well, what do we want to do with our lives? We're like in our mid twenties. We can do whatever we want, we're not tied to anything. And so for like the first time in my life, someone like who was in a relationship with me looked at me and said like, what do you want to do?

Speaker 2:

That's awesome. And I was like, okay, I don't know, I'm glad you asked and I'm honored.

Speaker 4:

I love the freedom of that Right and I was like, OK, I don't know.

Speaker 1:

I'm glad you asked and I'm honored. I love the freedom of that Right and.

Speaker 4:

I've never had someone like ask that and really mean it.

Speaker 4:

I think was the thing that was really intentional about it and I was just like well, I have this really crazy idea, this really wild dream, but I don't really know how to like actualize it. But I want to get into like podcasting, I want to get into audio, but I want to get into like podcasting, I want to get into audio. And she's just like well, how do you do that? I was like that's another really good question. And so what I tried to do was I tried to get a job at St Louis Public Radio, which is a really big NPR station, really great institution, but they weren't hiring any reporters and I had no real reporting experience at that point. And so I was like I'll go apply for this front desk job. And I thought to myself I'll be entrepreneurial and I'll like walk upstairs and be like oh hey, I just happened to produce this story, you guys want to air this right. So like that's what was going on in my brain.

Speaker 4:

I go to the interview and I bombed it. I was so bad, like I was incredibly unprepared for this interview. I thought I was so bad, like I was incredibly unprepared for this interview. I thought I was prepared, but I didn't really realize what it took to do this kind of work and I did not get a call back and it's fine. I'm not bitter at all about it because the reality is I had no business having that job, but it really helped solidify for me that like if you want to take this seriously, you have to take yourself seriously first. This seriously.

Speaker 4:

You have to take yourself seriously first, and so I decided well, what would make me more attractive to a public radio station? Well, I need like reporting experience, and I need to be friends with people and like make connections with people professionally who can help to put me in the right spots. And so for me that meant going back to school. So I got a master's in journalism here at the University of. Arkansas, and my master's thesis was a three part podcast series.

Speaker 1:

That's incredible.

Speaker 4:

About what advisor was the former general manager of KUAF and made friends with people on the faculty who were incredibly supportive, helped me to make sure that my goals were aligned with what I was doing in a classroom setting, to make sure that I was doing the kind of reporting that would set me up for this kind of thing Came here in 2019. In 2021, I graduated and started here three weeks later at KUAF.

Speaker 1:

So I've been here almost four years. Yeah, okay, almost four years. Yeah, wow, that's an incredible story that you just went for it.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I think part of that is I wouldn't call it a midlife crisis, because I was far too young. But it certainly was like I tried to do this thing that I thought I wanted to do and it didn't pan out the way that I thought it would. But with that life experience and with that like knowledge of like you tried it and it didn't work and you're still OK, you actually want to do, or like now that you have more, confidence, knowing that you can get out of that town of 300, what can you go and do?

Speaker 4:

And so so I had a bit more confidence in myself. I had a bit more confidence in that, Like I know that people will want me as long as I have the experience and the connections to get to where I want to, and so that's how I ended up here.

Speaker 2:

And you had the support of an incredible spouse. I think I don't want to diminish that at all. I love that part of your story because it resonates for me personally.

Speaker 1:

And I think even Danielle could say that I wonder, if she had asked you that, if it would have changed things.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's kind of interesting, but I feel that personally for my husband just so much support in all the things I do. Too many things actually, but I think that is. That's such a big part of it. You know like if you have the people that are surrounding you that are helping support your dreams, it makes it a little bit maybe not easier but you feel like, ok, I can do this, I have the support and you can have internal drive and you can have that internal like desire to do something bigger, and I think that when that is coupled with people surrounding you and supporting you, it's really turns into a beautiful thing.

Speaker 2:

That's a great story, thank you.

Speaker 4:

What I mean like a big part of anyone who's gone through higher education will tell you on a weekly, if not daily, basis imposter syndrome is such a huge part of like should I be here? Like, am I qualified to be here? And having that support system of people who you know will look at you and say like, you're good at this.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 4:

You're going to be even better at this and you're where you need to be Like even if it's an implicit saying sometimes of just like a rub on the back while you're reading this 49 page abstract about something that really you can't figure out. Why does this matter right now? Right To be like you're supposed to be doing this, Keep doing it yeah. Is really like the comfort that it takes a lot of times.

Speaker 1:

So you said your thesis was a three part podcast. So what was it Crime? No, it was not Okay. What?

Speaker 2:

kind of crime is around here. I know I do love a crime. We want to know.

Speaker 4:

And so the podcast was called In His Name, and it was a three-part podcast series about white evangelicals, the Republican Party and how they came to support and endorse Donald Trump in the 2016 election. And it was really this like academic look at the last century, really, of politics in America the impact of white evangelicalism moving towards political advocacy, and how those three things, which on the surface don't necessarily look like they should align, came to align in such a way to bring Donald Trump into office in 2016. And so one of the reasons that this was an important conversation for me to have was I grew up evangelical. I grew up in the church and really made that my personality for the first like 20 some years of my life.

Speaker 4:

I was a kid who, in third grade, on Mondays we would have like go around the circle and tell us what you did for the weekend, and I was the kid who always interjected and said so. On Sunday you went to church and what else did you do for the weekend? Because I just that was a thing people were supposed to do and people did.

Speaker 1:

That's how I grew up Same yeah.

Speaker 4:

And so I really made that a big part of my identity. I went to a Christian college and it was for me, a really important thing to stake my life on, and I don't say that to say you shouldn't keep doing that if you want to do that, but for me it was a very eye-opening experience. The first election I ever voted in was in 2008, the first time Barack Obama ran for office, and where I grew up, there was a lot of people who were Democrats, and Illinois is, of course, a very blue state and throughout the state it was very blue, and Barack Obama was an Illinois senator. It was someone who, like we all, expected our friends to know and vote for, and that was really the first time that I had ever seen a Christian say to me I could never vote for a black person for president, and that was the only reason someone actually said that to you.

Speaker 4:

And that was the only reason that they didn't want to vote for this person.

Speaker 2:

And this was in Illinois. Somebody said, wow, I was like I can see that in Arkansas.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, and so and so. Another person that I interacted with and this is where the evangelical part comes in is I was with a college friend. We'd only been friends for a couple of months, it was the first semester of college. I went to his house for the weekend and he thought it would be funny to tell his mom that I had voted for Barack Obama in 2008. And so we're driving to dinner. I'm sitting in the middle row of his mom's minivan and he says hey, mom, guess what? Matthew voted for Obama. And she turned around and she goes oh, so you voted for a baby killer.

Speaker 1:

Oh boy.

Speaker 4:

And those two experiences, like within a few months of each other, just really made me start to think about, like how did we?

Speaker 1:

get here Like what are we?

Speaker 4:

doing? What values do we have? That are causing us to have these sorts of rash, harsh decisions in our lives that aren't really based in policy, aren't really based in anything except for visceral reactions.

Speaker 4:

I don't like extreme blanket statements and so for me it was really just trying to offer a bit of like therapy to myself. Like, really start to analyze, like why is this happening? Not necessarily who's at fault, but like who can we point to and say this is how this happened, and really start to like, take ownership as Christians, as evangelicals, to say, like if you want to vote for this person, so be it, but here are reasons why other evangelicals don't have to fit into this blanket statement.

Speaker 4:

Right yeah, and so this was my podcast that I did for my master's and it was really, you know, I had conversations with scholars, with professors, with Trump, biographers, with people who had, like, really had a great understanding of how we got here, and so it was a very cathartic experience to be able to articulate why are we here now, and is there anything we can do to reckon with where we're at now?

Speaker 1:

Well, I like that you made it so like a lived experience and then came at it from like a truly trying to understand where people's heads are. Because you look back at, like when we think about our parents' generations. You look back at all the cultural zeitgeist and the things that happened that influenced the times and the wars and, collectively, where people are at. So I like that you made that your thesis, because it because we do live in very interesting times.

Speaker 2:

Where can people listen to this. Yeah, can we listen to?

Speaker 4:

this, yeah, so it's available wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 2:

In his name, in his name, in his name. How long is each episode?

Speaker 4:

They're about 20 to 30 minute episodes.

Speaker 2:

Okay, and there's three.

Speaker 4:

There's three of them.

Speaker 2:

Wow, wow, so that was your first yeah.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I know right, you could probably talk long form about that. So that was his thesis.

Speaker 2:

Okay, do you get graded on your thesis?

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, how does that work? He doesn't have to share his grade yes, he does.

Speaker 2:

We're totally asking him about his okay.

Speaker 4:

So I will say I got an A.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

A plus.

Speaker 4:

I officially defended my thesis. Yeah, all right, and you passed.

Speaker 1:

Well, he's here, okay, so after that, you started here in 2019. In 2021. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, 2021. I'm really bad with timelines, apparently 2021. And what position did you start here about?

Speaker 4:

with timelines, apparently 2021. And what position did you start here? So I just started as a plain old reporter. So I came in. So here at KUAF we have a six day a week program called Ozarks at Large. It's an hour long, every day at noon and seven and then on Sundays at 9 am, and I came in just as like someone who reported stories for that show and I didn't really have too much more responsibility other than show up, write stories, put them on the radio, rinse repeat yeah, I love Ozarks at large.

Speaker 1:

it like when I lived in Dallas I don't know eight years ago and before, I used to always listen to the local NPR station there and I loved it. They always did like little whimsical hours like call in and ask us what this saying means. Nobody knows where it came from, what it means, and then they do the local music and so I love that Ozarks at Large kind of gives the same, but culture and events.

Speaker 4:

It's just a great listen and discovering musicians that I'd never heard of before I say this and people think I'm kidding when I say this but one of my favorite things about working on this show is that there is nearly every single day where I'm just like I have never heard of that person before in my life. I have no idea what they are doing or what they're talking about, but by the end of it, I'm incredibly invested. Yeah, the host of the show and the guy who's been doing it for 30 plus years like he, is such a great interviewer and can make you interested in anything in the world, and so it's been great to have him as a mentor here, just to like listen to how he interviews people, listen to how he talks.

Speaker 4:

Great, you can tell he's seasoned, yeah, and just like makes room for them, is something that I try my best to do. I tend to be someone who loves to interject and I love to do that sort of thing, but he's so good at just asking the question and just stepping back and letting them like phrase it the way they want to put it the way that they want to, and is a really good active listener too.

Speaker 1:

And he won an award. Or Ozarks at Large. Ozarks at Large did Won an award. Yeah, congratulations. Thank you, that's so exciting.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, it's one of those things where it's never something that we like actively seek is this sort of validation, but it's always really wonderful when we get it, because it's just a reminder that, like people care, people listen and people want to make sure that we are appreciated, and so it's really comforting when those sorts of things happen. It's a good reminder of like people not only like care about it, but they want us to know that they care about it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's the same sentiment I feel like we share, because we're new to podcasting and I've done some radio even before I moved here and so I'd had some experience with that and doing like voiceover. I always did like radio advertising, so the type of voiceover I did before was not really something where you like connected with people actively. So I think podcasting has been different. I love when people reach out and say like a particular story like touch them in some way or they felt seen or heard, and so that's always what we strive to do as well. We don't seek it, but it does feel good to know that, like people appreciate what you're doing.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, and radio and podcasting, both are such like passive mediums and they're such like parasocial mediums that sometimes, as I'm sure, both of y'all are really big consumers of podcasts.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah.

Speaker 4:

And it can be one of those things where, like you like are excited every week when that episode, that new episode comes out. But as someone who's also on the other side of the microphone is creating, it's just like are you listening, are you there? Like hello. So like it can be really challenging to be like, oh right, like I'm really excited about this podcast, but sometimes I don't necessarily give it the flowers that it deserves or like I don't like it can be a good reminder to say like it's worth reaching out to the people who you really enjoy hearing from and that's true.

Speaker 4:

And so, like that's a good reminder and I don't say that to make sure that, like people reach out to me and tell me how much they love us. I say that mostly as a challenge to myself is, like I listen to a lot of podcasts and as a reminder to me that, like I know how much I value that like gratitude. I value that like gratitude, and it's a reminder to me to like make sure that the folks that I rely on whether it's for news or for just pure comedy and entertainment like to remind them that like, yeah, you're valuable in my life. Thank you for doing this and being this way.

Speaker 1:

That's a good point. Yeah, because we had someone comment today about it. Even Camacho's episode with the three that they found the episode to be just like a total gem. Just to hear his story and him sharing about DACA and the scholarships that he's helping to raise money for, and I was like, yeah, I love to hear that. You're right, like we should reach out to those that we listen to and let them know that like, hey, we are listening.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, totally, totally, we're not just a little number. It's like abyss of numbers and what?

Speaker 1:

do these numbers even mean Totally, yeah, totally.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so it's very interesting Podcasting has been. It's been a very big learning curve in some ways. So I come from a film background, yeah, and so I've like done all sorts of different media type jobs and careers and hobbies and so it's been a lot of fun.

Speaker 2:

I think that storytelling is something that we love, and not only being able to share, like some of our story along with the stories of others, but really highlighting people and what they've walked through, and so maybe we can talk a little bit about a little more about your journey and, like what you've learned and what would you tell younger Matthew, who was on the road driving eight hours show to show.

Speaker 1:

What would you tell him?

Speaker 4:

well, I actually want to go back a little bit further.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, matthew, yeah younger Matthew, living in the middle of nowhere. Matthew I love to go. She loves. I do like let's take it back we're gonna go film, yeah, a little film fade there yeah.

Speaker 4:

so when I was in sixth or seventh grade, one of my best friends he's still one of my best friends, his name is Ryan I went over to his house one night for a sleepover and he lived.

Speaker 4:

We also both of us lived out in the middle of nowhere, but we were like far enough away from each other that it was different middles of nowhere. And so I went over to his house and once it got dark, we're like surrounded by cornfields and like you can hear the coyotes out there. So it's just like well, we're staying in for the rest of the night. Oh my god, what are we going to do? And we couldn't go out in the living room and watch tv because it was too close to his parents bedroom. And he's just like well, the only thing I really do at night is he had this dual cassette boom box with a like microphone and he would stay up at night and listen to the top 40 pop radio station for the song he wanted to hear and he would record it onto a tape. I'm really aging myself here, but let's just brush over this.

Speaker 1:

Well, it's okay, we're older. Yeah, we're old too.

Speaker 4:

And so he would record this on cassette tape and so he was just like we could just do that and I'm like that sounds awesome. And so we spent God, probably like what was a tape, like 180 minutes, 140 minutes, whatever it was. We filled a tape making our own radio show that night.

Speaker 2:

I hope you have these.

Speaker 4:

We do.

Speaker 2:

That's amazing. Can you patch it in? Yes, we want to hear little Matthew and little Ryan talking about top 40 music.

Speaker 4:

And so. But what was really crazy about it was like we would like record and redo our own commercials for it, so like we had commercials from like the early 2000s that we were like recreating ourselves. We had like I had a sports store that I had like created in my brain that I was going to create. And it's so wild to look back at that, like 12, 13 year old matthew, and just be like you had it there, like you knew that you loved doing this and it was so much fun. But you just thought that it was just like a dream, that like it's a fun thing to do at your buddy's house. And here you are, like 20 plus years later, like doing it every day for a living. Like you had it.

Speaker 2:

You came back.

Speaker 1:

It was a full circle, isn't it amazing? I don't know why it is. We feel like, if's really enjoyable, we're like, well, no, we can't do that, because that's how I accidentally got into voiceover. I was just having fun hosting an event a nonprofit event that my mom put on, and I was just having a good time. And then, when someone was like you should do this, I was like you're kidding right, like I have a day job and I went to college business. Right. Right, so I thought I got to go into this box.

Speaker 4:

Well, I think that's both of y'all millennials. Ok, well, I don't mean to. I don't mean to, are you not? Oh, yeah, you're X.

Speaker 2:

Technically I'm Gen X, but I'm on the You're like a zennial kind of. Yeah whatever. I identify more as a millennial. She does.

Speaker 4:

Well, we both have baby boomer parents.

Speaker 2:

We all have baby boomers.

Speaker 4:

Correct, right, okay, so we can all like establish that as a shared experience, that, like our baby boomer parents told us that like you're going to go to college and you're going to go and like make a career out of your life. And like that's important, so like be able to like support yourself and to support your family, and as someone who had parents who, like, were really good at their jobs, but they came home extraordinarily just like drained from their jobs because they didn't love their jobs, but their jobs made them good money.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 4:

That was really hard for me to watch. Just like I don't enjoy being around you after you've had a terrible day at work for the fourth week in a row, like I want to enjoy, like spending time with you, and so for me it was like I could go get a job and I could go like make money doing what I want to do. So for me it was like I could go get a job and I could go like make money doing what I want to do. But for me it's more important to like come home at the end of the day and feel like, or like rejuvenated from the work that I'm doing and like excited and interested about the work that I was doing. So part of the reason why I stopped doing the work on the road is like I didn't find as much joy out of it when I came home as I wanted to. As much joy out of it when I came home as I wanted to.

Speaker 4:

Yeah. Like it was a good work and it was fun work, but like it was exhausting and I just didn't like the version of myself who came home at the end of the day and so like I was able to like look at my boomer parents and say like thank you for all you did for me, but like you were so excited to be retired.

Speaker 1:

Why did you like to start then?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, and so for me it was very much this mindset of like let's enjoy what we do and it's okay if it's not like a traditional job or it's not something you like went to school to do. Like are you good at what you do? Do you like doing what you do? That should be a priority as opposed to like. Did you go to college for this? I spent a lot of money on your college education.

Speaker 1:

Like you got to go be an accountant. It's like well maybe.

Speaker 4:

But if being an accountant makes me miserable and I, like, always wanted to be creative and I was in my buddy's bedroom at a sleepover making radio shows in sixth grade, maybe there's something to that. I wasn't in my buddy's bedroom like working on spreadsheets.

Speaker 1:

And if you were and you liked that then do it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, there are people that love it. There are people that love spreadsheets my daughter makes PowerPoint presentations for me. Maybe she's meant to be a leader and a corporation. There's so many opportunities to be a C-suite. Listening to you talk about your journey and and being young and finding your voice and finding what you love to do, it took me a lot longer to find some of that.

Speaker 1:

I was thinking the same thing that he actually started a little younger, yeah, and I think that I want to interject and say it doesn't matter what age you're at, like, if, if you find that later in life like that is a completely acceptable part of who you are. My mom changed careers at 60.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, she went and got her master's and became a therapist.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, after COVID, she just had enough. So we'll check in with Matthew when he's 60.

Speaker 3:

Please do and be like. What are you doing now, matthew?

Speaker 2:

He's like I'm living the dream, living the dream, whatever that dream is, and I think it's really neat to see those ebbs and flows, but it's really cool to hear you talk about when you were a kid making the radio show, and now you're doing this. Some of my questions I want to ask you are what are your favorite things about this job? What aspects of this do you love? And then, on the flip side, what are some of those challenges that you experience Editing?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, Honestly dealing with crazy guests. I was going to say you love editing, right, I love editing. No, I genuinely I find a lot of, I find a lot of joy in that, because there's something really great about raw interviews. But I'm I'm someone who's been diagnosed with ADHD, and so for me the fine tuning and the perfectionism is a really good attribute in this world, because I can really fine tune and make a conversation. It's just like this is such a great conversation. What if it could be just a little bit better?

Speaker 1:

What if we?

Speaker 4:

could make it just a little bit sharper. What if we could make it a little easier to follow, so that, if you like, I'm thinking radio typically first, so someone might tune in the middle of a conversation. How do I make sure that someone understands what we're talking about if they missed the first two minutes of our conversation? So, thinking about this kind of like one direction of a conversation, that they can't go backwards, they can't necessarily skip back if they're listening on the radio, but still like be invested in it.

Speaker 4:

So I love editing, believe it or not, one of the things I also really love and, again, as someone with ADHD, I love that I don't have to like pick a lane and stay in it.

Speaker 4:

I love that I can get really invested in a topic for three weeks and have the interview and be like, okay, I'm done with that for three weeks and have the interview and be like, okay, I'm done with that. I never have to think about that again critically and can totally move on to a different topic, a different subject, a different person. Altogether I don't have to like, I don't feel compelled to be like well, I guess I'm a politics reporter and I can only talk about, but no, like I can have conversations with podcasters, I can talk to authors, I can go and talk to a, an owner of a minor league baseball team. Like I have a lot of room to do whatever I want and that works to my advantage, because I can get really like invested knee deep in something and then just like throw it away a couple of weeks afterwards, and that's really helpful to me.

Speaker 2:

You're an enneagram seven, aren't you?

Speaker 1:

I am oh my god, how did you know?

Speaker 2:

that because I know enneagram seven. He's the dreamer. You know what we see each other.

Speaker 1:

My husband's a seven. My best friends are all sevens. I must need to be with people like what are you?

Speaker 4:

I'm a six. You're a six.

Speaker 1:

Okay, I'm your ride or die yeah, you're the loyalist that's why I have all german shepher, because I am a German Shepherd if I were a dog. I am the loyal like once I'm there.

Speaker 2:

I love that. She keeps us very organized. I am and on task yeah.

Speaker 4:

Well, my wife is literally a professional organizer, which?

Speaker 2:

is something I need in my life. Oh my gosh, I might need her number. Oh my gosh, I might need her number too. She's perfect for you.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, oh, it's so great Her asking you that that is so great she's incredibly strategic, like hyper organized, and it's great because I can keep a system, but I can't build a system.

Speaker 1:

Oh same.

Speaker 4:

And she's someone who can like look at a blank pantry and know exactly where everything needs to go, and if it's got a label and it's got a spot, it's going to end up there.

Speaker 4:

I'll put it back there, but I can't look at that and be like that's where this needs to go, and even thinking about like the structure of like a closet, for example, right that like I could just like I'm going to put stuff and it'll get put away, but it won't get put away in a like strategic way, Press it in, hold the door shut and then tell my kids don't open.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Don't look at me like that. No, I'm just thinking about my house and how it's like both my husband and I are not as organized. I'm like you. I could keep a system, but building it it's like I get kind of overwhelmed.

Speaker 4:

It's overwhelming.

Speaker 1:

She has strategy. I do have a lot of strategy, so this is what's great about having her in my life.

Speaker 4:

She's very organized and it helps me because I don't have to feel the stress and responsibility of starting the organization. I can just maintain it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and that makes it a lot easier. Just put me in your system and I'll follow the rules.

Speaker 2:

What's your wife's name?

Speaker 4:

Emily.

Speaker 2:

Emily, we need Emily in our lives. We do.

Speaker 1:

No for sure no for sure.

Speaker 4:

So I think to that. So the second half of your question right. Like, what are the challenges for me? Oftentimes it's just like time constraints. We have a daily show, we have a deadline every single day, and so sometimes I don't get to be as prepared as I would like to be for interviews. Sometimes, like I recently, earlier this year I had an interview with a biographer of John Quincy Adams who wrote a 700 page book that I did not read all of it. I think if you had given me a year, I probably couldn't have read this stuff, not because it's a bad book, but because of the ADHD.

Speaker 1:

I can't focus for that long. That's why I do audio books. Yeah, same problem, yeah, and so I can multitask.

Speaker 4:

I can like do the dishes and listen to the book. Yes, that wasn't an option available to me, so I read as much of it as I could and luckily I'm a decent enough interviewer that it was a good conversation, even though I hadn't finished the book. But that can be one of the challenges. For me is being prepared and like having the motivation to prepare.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Okay. So, playing off that before we wrap up, who's been your favorite person to interview? Or I mean it could be more than one. Yeah, Top five Okay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah Well, top three. Okay so besides us yeah.

Speaker 4:

Well, obviously one and two.

Speaker 1:

Obviously.

Speaker 4:

So I think, as someone who came into, I appreciate that you acknowledge that I wasn't that old when I like did the restart on my career I had. It probably didn't help that, like I went back to college and I interacted with kids who, like didn't know what nine 11. Was I a small aside. We had class one day on September 11th and I was in a I was in an undergraduate class as to like fill in some prereqs before I could start my master's program officially. So I'm in a class with kids who were born in like 2000, 2001. And we had class on September 11th and I made the mistake of saying do you remember where you were on 9-11? And they just gave me the blankest of looks of just like I was still.

Speaker 4:

Well, they were born in the womb womb I was still in a bassinet, noted oh my god, cool guys.

Speaker 2:

So now I never.

Speaker 4:

I never talked about historical events ever again after that you're like to make you feel I went back to college later in life due to finish my degree.

Speaker 2:

I worked in youth ministry for a while and then I went back to get my film degree and I blend in because people think I'm younger than what I really am, and so I had those same experiences where I would talk about something like culturally or pop culture and I would get those blank stares. So, it's okay.

Speaker 1:

My younger sister was born in 2000.

Speaker 2:

I'm going to hold space for you in that, but I'm not going to hold your finger.

Speaker 4:

No, that's great.

Speaker 2:

Do you know what I'm referring? To. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Wicked. She's like what are we?

Speaker 2:

doing? What are we doing?

Speaker 1:

This is we're holding space I don't like to touch.

Speaker 2:

I know.

Speaker 1:

That's not an onion in my love languages.

Speaker 2:

Like my number two. No, it's my least. Don't touch me. When I tell Danielle that I love her, she's like are you drinking?

Speaker 1:

No, I know, but I love you. I'm like, have you been drinking today?

Speaker 2:

Nope, because that's the only way you're going to get it from me. I just love you. I'm so sorry we're going off on a tangent.

Speaker 4:

So, having said that, I found a lot of joy in talking to people who inspired me that I could do this. I could be a professional microphone talker and tour.

Speaker 1:

That's my favorite. I need that.

Speaker 4:

I need that on a name tag or just a shirt, Okay keep going and so when I let's see, this was like 2021, 2022. I took the initiative and I asked Kyle. I said I want to interview people who like make podcasts and do cause. So we do a lot of like. We have segments where we do like film reviews.

Speaker 4:

We have like music guests in, and I was just like I would love to talk to people who are making new podcasts in the same vein. That, like we review films and we review music, like let's review this, Cause it's the same kind of entertainment, same kind of media, right, it's in that vein. And he's like, yeah, absolutely, let's do it. And so I have had an opportunity to talk to some podcasters who like. For me it was like yes, I love your podcast, but also like this is incredibly just. If no one listens to this interview but me, I am just fine with this because it's a bit of like a reward for me to be able to like glean some insight from you.

Speaker 4:

So one of those people is a podcaster named Avery Truffleman, who worked for a long time on a show called 99% Invisible, if you're familiar with that at all, it's a really great show and it's about the 99%. Invisible is about like the things in design that go unseen.

Speaker 4:

So, one of my favorite episodes of theirs and I don't think she did this one, but one of my favorite episodes of theirs is about the curb cut, and so the idea is that, like, as someone who uses a stroller, I think about curb cuts a lot because they're incredibly useful to me as I'm walking through downtowns and, like want to get around. But curb cuts were invented for people who are hard of seeing, and that's why they have the bumpiness, that's why they're yellow, they're like contrasted from the road, and so it's a story about, like, the genesis of the curb cut and talking about why you know why it's become something that, like, millennial moms are the ones who are really pushing for these sorts of things because they want to be able to like walk downtown without having to lift their giant strollers off of the sidewalk onto the street if they have to cross. So it's been so. So those sorts of stories are the ones that they really like lean into. So so I talked to her, because she's someone who does these really fascinating conversations about a lot of times it's about clothing, and so these are things that, like, I care about what I wear, but I don't care quite that much about what I wear. So it was really fascinating to hear her talk about all of these like inanimate objects and how she like found so much meaning and reporting on this.

Speaker 4:

Reporting on this, and so hearing her talk about how the reason she really loves doing stories about inanimate objects as opposed to people is that imagine if you were sitting in a car and you're having a conversation with your older child, who may be preteen, teenager, and you have to have a conversation that you're not comfortable with. It's so much easier to have the conversation where you're both facing the same direction. You don't have to like make eye contact. You can like say like hey, let's talk about my. Your teacher told me you got bullied at school today. Let's talk about that. You're having these sorts of like hard conversations that may be uncomfortable in any other setting, but you're sharing that space within the car, you're facing the same direction and everyone is being able to like have these sorts of conversations without it being personal, but it's still relevant and important, right.

Speaker 4:

And so that's one of the things that she talked about. Really loving about the kind of reporting that she did is like we're both all of us, the listener and me as the host we're looking in the same direction. We're looking at the object. You're not looking at me as the host, like I'm not making this about myself, like I'm not looking at you, the listener, who may or may not be able to afford this clothing or care about this clothing, like we're looking in the same direction at this thing and we're able to talk about it objectively and passionately in a way that's really relevant and engaging and that was really inspiring to me.

Speaker 4:

And it's a reminder to me that, as someone who reports a lot on civics and reports a lot on understanding political education, that I don't want it to be necessarily about. Let's look at a politician, but let's look at why it's important to know the difference between a mayor and a governor, or let's talk about why it's important to know what your county judge does and if I can do that in a way that makes it relevant, passionate and educational, like and it's something that, like you, accidentally enjoy boy that's really important to me.

Speaker 4:

So, and I know that those can be hard to do and I think that's why I really resonate with the show, like 99% Invisible, because it can seem like it's going to be really dry, seem like it's not going to be very informative, but like you walk away from it, like smiling, like why am I smiling about trash can designs, like why is this fun?

Speaker 1:

Because most people don't know. And you look at it and you're like huh, yeah, Like.

Speaker 2:

I know.

Speaker 4:

And so those are the sort of things that, like really inspire me, so I'll just leave it at that one. I think that was one of the most inspirational conversations to me is to like hear that from her and see that I accidentally do a lot of the things that she does, and it's probably because I listen to a lot of the reporting she's done and resonate with a lot of the ethos of why she does that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So we want to wrap up, because I know that KUAF had some big news and it might direct the future of what's to come, and so, on that note, what is your goal? What is the future? Hold for you here Anything you're working on or you're excited about.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, so here at KUAF, anything you're working on or you're excited about, yeah, so here at KUAF, we're always trying to think about, like, how do we make sure that people are coming to us for their news, for their arts and their music and their entertainment in any way that they can? And so a lot of the things that we're trying to think about is how do we make sure that people get the information that we're trying to give them if they aren't listening exactly at noon or exactly at seven, right, because radio for a long time has been our perhaps only focus, but certainly our primary focus. And so thinking about how can we make sure that we are getting this information to people, however they consume it? In this fractured, atomized media landscape, it can be so hard to like keep people's attention for long enough to like get them the information that they need. So a lot of that is thinking about.

Speaker 4:

Well, how do we make sure we think this is important? We know that you think it's important because you keep trying to come back to us, but perhaps there are some barriers, perhaps there are some hurdles to keep you regularly engaged and consuming our content, and so we think a lot about we make the show available as a podcast so you can listen to it whenever you want to. Kuaf is available on smart speakers too, so all you have to do is say, hey friend, listen to KUAF and you can listen to it at any time. But also thinking about people don't always consume media through the ways we want them to.

Speaker 4:

They'll go to social media. They'll go to Instagram. They'll go to TikTok they'll go to fill in the blank, whatever might come up in the next five years. Who knows at this point? But how can we make sure that people are getting the information that they need on an extremely local level which is what we're experts in and get the information right and they get the information in a way that they're already consuming it?

Speaker 4:

So, that can be a real challenge, right, and I think a lot of times we tend to think about. It can be tough to work within the social media algorithms because we have no control over what they choose to incentivize or disincentivize. And how can we make it something where people are opening their email inbox every day Newsletters are a great way to we own that media right. We have control over whether or not an email does or doesn't go to you and so it's thinking about how do we make sure that we are bringing you the information in whatever digital way you consume it and really take it in. And it's easier I should say easier for me as someone who grew up a digital native, came into this world podcast first. I wanted to do podcasting really before I wanted to do radio, and so it's a little easier for me to think in that mindset of like, how can we think about creating using the content we're already creating? How can we reformat that to be more digestible and easier to consume? Wherever you're finding the consumption habits?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I know Well it is. I can see how it could be challenging because I will admit that I consume like pretty much on demand. So when I listened to Ozarks at large or any of your, like district three or I am Northwest Arkansas, I have to download it and then I'll listen to it at car line or or wherever I am. That's how I am. I. It's hard to get me listen live Totally and it's just the way I would love to and I tried to but no, I can see that. And then it's hard because my sister she was born in 2000. She consumes everything on TikTok and she's always trying to get us to do our show on TikTok. But video podcasting is it's a whole lot more. It is tough. So we appreciate hearing that from you and we've loved partnering with KUAF. We've already had on one of the hosts of District Three.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, which was a great episode, by the way, y'all did a really great job.

Speaker 1:

It was a really good conversation.

Speaker 4:

And you both did a very good job of like giving him the space to talk about what he wanted. Let him direct the conversation. So, that was a great conversation.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I know that we all kind of are local podcasts and I think Randy talked about it at the R-Cast Awards how we all have our individual personalities and what we bring. But I think we all seem to have, I think, the same goal, which is just to spotlight people in the community and what they're doing and just create connection, Because I think that's the one thing I've really enjoyed the most about doing. What we do is just meeting other people and finding out, and we always try to stay like neutral on our podcast. But we were just talking about a quote that I heard the other day and it was a sign of intelligence is the ability to change your mind.

Speaker 4:

Totally.

Speaker 1:

And I can't tell you how many times we've had a guest on and maybe I had some sort of I don't even know, just I had my own lived experience and then I hear someone else share something and I think wow. I'd never considered that or that. They're living this experience even here in Northwest Arkansas yeah, you know.

Speaker 4:

I had a professor in college and again I went to a very conservative Christian college and I had a religion or philosophy professor who we were talking about like those classes tended to be a bit more liberal, and not in the like Democrat, republican, liberal, but like thinking more critically and thinking more of just like let's get outside of your preconceived notions and let's really like critically think about why do you believe what you believe?

Speaker 4:

And one of the professors talked about this idea of like don't feel like you always have to have an answer for something. There's something very like not just liberating but also invitational, about saying something as simple as like I don't know, but let's find out. And I really that's been a bit of my mantra is in this, in this world where it's so easy to just be like, this is what I understand and this is what I know and this is my lived experience. So this is the only experience I, anytime I have a conversation with someone, I always try to come in with the mindset of like I don't know where this is going to go, but let's find out. And it's invitational of like we're all going to learn together and we may come out having different ideas of where we landed and that's okay, but, like the invitational element of let's find out together, I think is really important and why I think podcast is such a great medium because it is so intimate, Like you're listening in your earbuds right.

Speaker 4:

I mean like how much more personal does it get than that? And being able to like, be open, be invitational and learn together, I think, is something that is a big building block for me of why I do this.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so awesome.

Speaker 2:

I love that. I love that too. I think it's so true that it is an intimate experience like listening to people talk and share their experiences. And, just to piggyback off of what Danielle said, I think that it's really great when you get to meet people, when you get to meet people in person and you get to hear their stories, and it helps you maybe see the world from a different perspective or maybe think about something in a different way that you haven't thought of before. And I think in this digital world it's so easy to hide behind our computer screens.

Speaker 2:

And our social pictures and our social pictures and make everybody think that our worlds are perfect, when really, in fact, we are all struggling with something or we all have a story to share. We all have something that resonates or we can connect with, and I think that's that is a beautiful part of this. We've had people reach out to us and I'm sure you've experienced this too where people resonated with something you've said or something that you've had a guest say, and that's really, it's really cool. This is so much fun. It's so fun.

Speaker 1:

It's authentic, it really is authentic and we own our media.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we really do. I think that it's good and I and I love people's stories. I think that we all have a story to tell, Totally.

Speaker 4:

And that's one of the going back to the editing thing. I think that's why I really love this medium is because, like, people can often get a bit distracted or they can like feel a bit of imposter syndrome and like I don't know if my story is worth hearing. And I have had, I've had, more than a few guests who come in and give a very like raw version of their story and they're just like, oh my God, I don't know if that turned out to be anything.

Speaker 4:

I think that's going to be terrible and I just have to tell them I'm like, I do this for a living. Trust me that this is going to be a story you're going to be excited to share. And time again I will hear back from people who are like I had no idea that I sounded that smart, and I always tell them I'm like you do.

Speaker 2:

Because I'm an editing master, you're a guru Matthew to be like I'm an editing master. He's like I don't like the attention. No, he is humble. Look at me, everyone. Look at my editing skills.

Speaker 1:

But at the same token right Garbage in, garbage out, If you don't have a good story to tell, then I'm going to have a really hard time editing that. You can edit out their crutch words and I think that's a big part. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4:

But just a reminder of people of like you have a story worth telling, yeah. Yeah, but just a reminder of people like you. Have a story worth telling, yeah, and having the confidence and the empowerment to share that story, I think can be really difficult because it feels inauthentic to be authentic, but the reality is that, like if we've learned anything in the last decade that like being authentic and being transparent and being vulnerable is one of the things that brings us together more than anything else.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, people want like. I always try to talk to my kids about that. They want everything to like, sound perfect or be perfect. I'm like whenever anything that I've learned in public speaking or podcasting is people like to hear. And even I teach yoga too. I would have other teachers that would take my class and they liked when I messed up.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because they're like more real, you're real.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you're a real person. And it's all about how you handle it, right.

Speaker 2:

Truly, yeah, truly, and I try to. For me personally on my social media, that is something that I try to portray is that I'm going to show the highlights and people are always like, oh my gosh, you have so much fun and I'm like, ok, well, here's a post about body insecurity and here's a post about my hair is thinning because of the medication I'm on, and so like just being real of like here are some other struggles, and then having people that I can connect with, that I can connect with the times that I've shared about body insecurities and body image type posts, I've had people come into my inbox who are like, oh, I feel the same way, or oh, thank you for sharing that, help me feel. Or or be seen, and so I think that there's something to be said about that as well as like we can talk about the real and the hard things.

Speaker 2:

And you know, like I think, like just you're saying that our interview with Ervin was really good, I was insecure about it, like when I listened to it, because I don't know Spanish and I'm not really good with foreign languages, and I was very insecure about that whole conversation. I felt like I sounded like an idiot.

Speaker 1:

And it was fine, it was totally fine. We now have a bilingual podcast I. And it was fine, it was totally fine.

Speaker 2:

We now have a bilingual podcast I know and we're going to go on his but we have to practice because he invited us only in Spanish. Is it Duolingo that I need to download and start doing?

Speaker 1:

Sure.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, something, I need something. We are out of time.

Speaker 1:

Let's end with your favorite part of this area. You're not from here, neither are we.

Speaker 4:

What's your favorite part? Just, it could be anything. It could be the landscape, the people, restaurant, whatever. Yeah, I think for me there is a spot at Devil's Den State Park where there is the waterfall, kind of thing.

Speaker 1:

Do you know what I'm talking about? I just went to that like a couple months ago, yeah.

Speaker 4:

And as someone like I grew up, as I've said, I grew up in the middle of nowhere. I grew up around like a lot of nature, but a lot of the nature I grew up around was like very agricultural. So and it was super flat.

Speaker 4:

Illinois is not known for being mountainous super flat, super agricultural. So like when I looked out, I saw cornfields and soybeans and not much else, and so to be in a place that I can drive 15 minutes and just feel like I am in the middle of nowhere in the best way possible is like fantastic, and I don't take advantage of it enough. I'm excited for my kids now to be big enough that like we can go out there and just like spend a day out there and just like get into trouble in the best way possible and do those sorts of things. That's honestly one of my favorite parts of this place is how close we are to just like the most gorgeous nature in the world and also like 10 minutes away from targets Not bad either.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Having both is nice, that is a good answer. Well, thank you for letting us interview you.

Speaker 4:

Thank you for being here.

Speaker 2:

And if you could tell our listeners where they can find you on social media. Totally yeah, so you can find.

Speaker 4:

You can find me personally. I am Matthew R Moore on Instagram. You can also follow the show Ozarks at Large on Instagram as well. We post stories that we're doing every day on there. And yeah, that's all I got to plug. Thanks so much for having me.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, matthew, thank you.

Speaker 3:

People of Northwest Arkansas with the two Daniels produced by me. Brock Short of Civil Republic Productions. Please rate, review and like us on any podcast platform where you listen. For more information about today's guests and the show, please check the show notes. Thanks for listening.